Yeah squirrel a have to agree with EternalDarkness, some times it best to hear how you can improve. EternalDarkness actually gave me some not to long ago and I have seriously improved@Squirrel
@Squirrel very well. I judge it's not in my interest either, and conversating with someone who's out of arguments is not my style anyway. We will conversate again on some other occasion.
@EternalDarkness I have no interest in sparking a rivalry or repeating myself constantly. I suggest we both have the decency to end it here. Otherwise I will request a third opinion(s) from other moderators. Which may result in an outcome neither of us will appreciate.
@Squirrel so, as the two arrogant people locked in an obvious battle of egos, should we call it off, or move this conversation to another medium? My suggestion would be Hangouts, where few SimplePlanes themed chats already exists.
@Himynameiswalrus @EternalDarkness I think you both missed the mark as to what I was getting across. Constructive criticism is good. But, please do enlighten me as to how stating something is "bad" or "not up to my expectations" is in anyway helpful. It simply isn't. There's no context, what about it is helpful? It's a blanket statement, it's like those people that dislike a youtube video but don't explain why they don't like it. Almost like they somehow think that announcing to the world that they don't like something without explaining why is going to make a difference.
.
I also pointed out that multiple people giving such criticisms can take it's toll. I imagine most users on this site would find it upsetting if they were constantly told there creations were bad without any reference as to why. Now taking into account I had to remove a number of posts regarding Ccooper in a very negative light, if the comments on his creations were anything like those then they were blatant hate speech.
.
Such forum posts obviously made it out to some users before they were removed as a surge in herd mentality occurred presumably regarding hate speech in the hours before Ccooper requested to have his account removed. Now considering that the Devs followed through with the request and introduced a account remove option, that suggests something fairly serious occurred to provoke such actions. I know one of the Devs spoke to me about the incident and agreed it was a shame people were hating on him.
.
@EternalDarkness "I strongly believe that you are too sentimental to moderate". If that was the case I would be resigning based off this comment alone. But as an INTJ, I think you'll find I'm more than equipped to deal with such things. I should point out that I'm simply working with the evidence/facts presented to me, including facts you don't have access to. If you disagree fair enough, I'm not going to go out of my way to change your mind. Also, as someone that acquired a strike from a dev 6 days ago, your not one for challenging a moderators position.
I was just saying that if you worded it like that, it could be seen as hateful (I didn't mean for it to sound like I was calling you out, I was just saying in general). I also wish that I would get more constructive criticism on my builds. @EternalDarkness
@RyneKuczy I did that at first. He was like "tell me more", and then disregarded given advices completely. I am always trying to put myself in place of the person who I'm talking to, and not say anything I consider rude/harmful. I'm always trying to give "constructive criticism", and I always expect to get it. To be honest, I'm getting tired of people not finding any flaws in my builds, or not pointing them out. I'm giving criticism, and I'm expecting those who I criticize to improve, and tell me how to improve. Ccooper doing neither of these caused my dissatisfaction.
If you say "not good enough" on a lot of posts without a reason or anything about why or isn't good enough then I can see how it could be viewed as hate speech. For example instead of just saying "not good enough" you could say "It's not really working well, but if you made it roll quicker and gave it bigger control surfaces then I think it would work a lot better". Just my opinion though @EternalDarkness
@Squirrel I hate to go against you, but @EternalDarkness does make a good point (not really that you shouldn't be a mod, I think you do a great job) but most criticism he got was just "put more effort into your work" or "try a little harder, don't upload as much, you need to put more pride into your work" Ccooper did overreact by leaving in my opinion, only a few people were actually saying hurtful things to him
@Squirrel in that case, I strongly believe that you are too sentimental to moderate. I am not used to such sensitive people. In my experience, "not good enough" is means "you should improve", not "I hate you". I gave ccooper advices about improving his style. He seemed interested, and then dumped those down the toilet. I find that to be rude. That, and his lack of constructive criticism on other people's models, compelled me to use him multiple as an example of how a high ranking user should not behave. Saying "nice plane" and upvoting is also not constructive criticism.
@EternalDarkness If users were saying things along the lines of "this plane sucks" or "this doesn't deserve to be on the hottest page". Then I view that as hate speech. Sure it's not flat out hating like in the examples you said, but it's not exactly kind either. Constructive criticism is along the lines of "it lacks speed" or "it's too nose heavy" and I'm not sure Ccooper was the kind of person to take that kind of thing to heart. I personally don't know him and neither of us can get into his head a experience what happened to him.
.
In the example you gave: "I don't like this, it doesn't fulfill my personal expectations" isn't constructive criticism. Stating an opinion like that adds no value to anything. The whole point of constructive criticism is that you can take something away from it and use it to improve on something else. Stating "I don't like it" is just a petty rude opinion that nobody wants to hear or read and "it doesn't fulfill my personal expectations" is another petty opinion that again adds no value to anything. So while it's criticism, it's not helpful and in large quantities when people are posting such things with a herd mentality, it can be quite hurtful and arguably it can also be bullying, so in my book, that's worthy of a ban.
@Squirrel true that, but the bad feedback is also a kind of feedback. If we are expected to provide feedback, don't expect it to always be of a good kind. What happened with ccooper is a typical example of somebody not being able to handle negative feedback, or, if you want, bad criticism. The point where "constructive criticism" turns into "hate speech" doesn't exist. Saying "I don't like this, it doesn't fulfill my personal expectations" is criticism. Saying "you are ####### and you should go #######!" is hate speech. They are not too similar.
@EternalDarkness Then they would have got a warning. At the end of the day hate speech of letting another player down is not tolerated on this site, as made clear by the rules: "If you are continually telling people their airplanes suck, then maybe you suck."
.
Hate speech is also an offence that will cause you to get banned immediately. Now the rules don't specify at what point constructive criticism becomes hate speech, but if it's causing a core user to consider leaving, then I'm willing to bet there's a bit of severity in the words used by said people.
I always get constructive criticism on mine and it helps# shout out to @EternalDarkness@RyneKuczy
Yeah squirrel a have to agree with EternalDarkness, some times it best to hear how you can improve. EternalDarkness actually gave me some not to long ago and I have seriously improved@Squirrel
@Squirrel send me your mail on my private, and I'll add you.
@EternalDarkness Alright, you've pulled my leg. Where to?
@Squirrel very well. I judge it's not in my interest either, and conversating with someone who's out of arguments is not my style anyway. We will conversate again on some other occasion.
@EternalDarkness I have no interest in sparking a rivalry or repeating myself constantly. I suggest we both have the decency to end it here. Otherwise I will request a third opinion(s) from other moderators. Which may result in an outcome neither of us will appreciate.
@Squirrel so, as the two arrogant people locked in an obvious battle of egos, should we call it off, or move this conversation to another medium? My suggestion would be Hangouts, where few SimplePlanes themed chats already exists.
@Squirrel lol XD. People are so mean on YouTube. Like 90 people will comment "kys" if you say "hi"
@Himynameiswalrus Trust me, that's nice coming from me. You should see my youtube comments. XD
@Squirrel yay! I will not feel the wrath of the squirrel!
@Himynameiswalrus It's alright. No harm done!
@Squirrel okay sowwy squirrel ):
@Himynameiswalrus @EternalDarkness I think you both missed the mark as to what I was getting across. Constructive criticism is good. But, please do enlighten me as to how stating something is "bad" or "not up to my expectations" is in anyway helpful. It simply isn't. There's no context, what about it is helpful? It's a blanket statement, it's like those people that dislike a youtube video but don't explain why they don't like it. Almost like they somehow think that announcing to the world that they don't like something without explaining why is going to make a difference.
.
I also pointed out that multiple people giving such criticisms can take it's toll. I imagine most users on this site would find it upsetting if they were constantly told there creations were bad without any reference as to why. Now taking into account I had to remove a number of posts regarding Ccooper in a very negative light, if the comments on his creations were anything like those then they were blatant hate speech.
.
Such forum posts obviously made it out to some users before they were removed as a surge in herd mentality occurred presumably regarding hate speech in the hours before Ccooper requested to have his account removed. Now considering that the Devs followed through with the request and introduced a account remove option, that suggests something fairly serious occurred to provoke such actions. I know one of the Devs spoke to me about the incident and agreed it was a shame people were hating on him.
.
@EternalDarkness "I strongly believe that you are too sentimental to moderate". If that was the case I would be resigning based off this comment alone. But as an INTJ, I think you'll find I'm more than equipped to deal with such things. I should point out that I'm simply working with the evidence/facts presented to me, including facts you don't have access to. If you disagree fair enough, I'm not going to go out of my way to change your mind. Also, as someone that acquired a strike from a dev 6 days ago, your not one for challenging a moderators position.
@RyneKuczy well, some of them, like F100 and F3D look like a quick work. Others are, in my opinion, good.
I was just saying that if you worded it like that, it could be seen as hateful (I didn't mean for it to sound like I was calling you out, I was just saying in general). I also wish that I would get more constructive criticism on my builds. @EternalDarkness
@RyneKuczy Oh, okay. Thanks for the info. I'm gonna stay outa this now.
@RyneKuczy I did that at first. He was like "tell me more", and then disregarded given advices completely. I am always trying to put myself in place of the person who I'm talking to, and not say anything I consider rude/harmful. I'm always trying to give "constructive criticism", and I always expect to get it. To be honest, I'm getting tired of people not finding any flaws in my builds, or not pointing them out. I'm giving criticism, and I'm expecting those who I criticize to improve, and tell me how to improve. Ccooper doing neither of these caused my dissatisfaction.
If you say "not good enough" on a lot of posts without a reason or anything about why or isn't good enough then I can see how it could be viewed as hate speech. For example instead of just saying "not good enough" you could say "It's not really working well, but if you made it roll quicker and gave it bigger control surfaces then I think it would work a lot better". Just my opinion though @EternalDarkness
@Squirrel I hate to go against you, but @EternalDarkness does make a good point (not really that you shouldn't be a mod, I think you do a great job) but most criticism he got was just "put more effort into your work" or "try a little harder, don't upload as much, you need to put more pride into your work" Ccooper did overreact by leaving in my opinion, only a few people were actually saying hurtful things to him
@Squirrel in that case, I strongly believe that you are too sentimental to moderate. I am not used to such sensitive people. In my experience, "not good enough" is means "you should improve", not "I hate you". I gave ccooper advices about improving his style. He seemed interested, and then dumped those down the toilet. I find that to be rude. That, and his lack of constructive criticism on other people's models, compelled me to use him multiple as an example of how a high ranking user should not behave. Saying "nice plane" and upvoting is also not constructive criticism.
@EternalDarkness If users were saying things along the lines of "this plane sucks" or "this doesn't deserve to be on the hottest page". Then I view that as hate speech. Sure it's not flat out hating like in the examples you said, but it's not exactly kind either. Constructive criticism is along the lines of "it lacks speed" or "it's too nose heavy" and I'm not sure Ccooper was the kind of person to take that kind of thing to heart. I personally don't know him and neither of us can get into his head a experience what happened to him.
.
In the example you gave: "I don't like this, it doesn't fulfill my personal expectations" isn't constructive criticism. Stating an opinion like that adds no value to anything. The whole point of constructive criticism is that you can take something away from it and use it to improve on something else. Stating "I don't like it" is just a petty rude opinion that nobody wants to hear or read and "it doesn't fulfill my personal expectations" is another petty opinion that again adds no value to anything. So while it's criticism, it's not helpful and in large quantities when people are posting such things with a herd mentality, it can be quite hurtful and arguably it can also be bullying, so in my book, that's worthy of a ban.
@Squirrel true that, but the bad feedback is also a kind of feedback. If we are expected to provide feedback, don't expect it to always be of a good kind. What happened with ccooper is a typical example of somebody not being able to handle negative feedback, or, if you want, bad criticism. The point where "constructive criticism" turns into "hate speech" doesn't exist. Saying "I don't like this, it doesn't fulfill my personal expectations" is criticism. Saying "you are ####### and you should go #######!" is hate speech. They are not too similar.
@EternalDarkness Then they would have got a warning. At the end of the day hate speech of letting another player down is not tolerated on this site, as made clear by the rules: "If you are continually telling people their airplanes suck, then maybe you suck."
.
Hate speech is also an offence that will cause you to get banned immediately. Now the rules don't specify at what point constructive criticism becomes hate speech, but if it's causing a core user to consider leaving, then I'm willing to bet there's a bit of severity in the words used by said people.
The video is of Squirrel banning the users who made ccooper leave @SteadfastContracting
No, he was bullied in to leaving by other users @SteadfastContracting