So, I feel like we're at a point where stealth is so extremely saturated, it's reaching a point of unsustainability. I mean, its crazy how much an F-22 or even SU-57 cost. It's genuinely maddening even, those figures. And one of those two aforementioned isn't even that good in comparison...
(it's actually really good when you think about the improvement over what the SU-27 has)
What I want to propose to you is what is at first a seemingly ridiculous idea, but I ask that you hear me out on this; A plane, that confuses more than trying to hide. A plane the re focuses all that money into a system of radar jamming and/or confusion systems that cancel out the BVR potential of... Well.. literally any aircraft unless you have AWACS guided missiles on board, which even then, onboard countermeasures will come super in handy.
Now, this isn't meant to better stealth, it's supposed to redirect costs and all in a more effective type of engagement which involves absolute and direct skill over technological oversaturation. Basically, by making a system that pushes out waves to amplify signatures, you don't just make it difficult to detect you, you literally make the system trying to target you fry itself in trying to do so because of how confused it gets.
You may say that it doesn't matter, you're still going to get detected by an F-22 before it gives itself away and you'd be dead by the time you realize; To that I say, I won't know where the F-22 is, but I'll sure as heck realize an incoming missile when Either me, or my AWACS OR My IR sensors detecting it incoming. Once I know where the missile came from and defended and was able to successfully evade... My time to hunt
Here is the thing. You're now at a disadvantage regardless of what you're in. P-51 or F-22. I have two engines and high sweep angle because I didn't focus on making a stealthy wing design, I made a design to overwhelm you at WVR. Unless you know how to outrate me, I kill you in a dogfight.
Now here's the thing, I've managed all of that within likely a 75% of the price of your 5th gen... And far less maintenance costs in terms of keeping the exteriors in shape. You're at a disadvantage if you still focus on stealth here, I've outdone you. So what do you all think? Would a design like that actually work?
Anyone Else's thoughts would also be nice to hear.
@GalaxiesDontSlleep ohh looking forward to that! 👀
and yeah anti gravity might be the best answer because light does not get affected by gravity, but they still act like thrusters because of limitation of application (following the logic of that circular light objects on my designs and their placement)
i would like to thank Thomas again for his help exploring lore back then
@Sadboye12 how do you explain the aero, though? anit grav or some shi?
And I got some insight from this post that im actually gonna use as lore for mah next big plane lol.
Hopefully by next week we should see it ready.
@GalaxiesDontSlleep this is a very interesting post! also regarding the question of my non-stealth designs, in their universe, their opponents does not use conventional radar systems/method of detections as known to us. they possess detection systems that by normal means almost impossible to conceal from,
im not gonna write lore here, cuz i'd be hogging comment section of yours again 😭
@Noname918181818181818181 Good to know, because Im working on a plane literally having this as part of it's lore.
Besides, it's really exciting because I managed to give it a Fly by wire that might be revolutionary if enough people start to use it, which can be found here
@GalaxiesDontSlleep interesting, that could work, but hgbp does bring some good points too
At the end of the day, I'm taking screenshots because this could create an interesting story setting y'know.
@hpgbproductions agreed
And yes. Once it's within range of hardkill, I don't think there is any point trying to Jam it anyway.
@GalaxiesDontSlleep when missiles can have a relative velocity of over 1000 ft per second, kinda hard
You need to detect them first, which you will need a radar, which is blinded by your jammer, which you will probably only turn off when you detect a missile. Big problem
Then you can try to fry them, but it takes a lot of energy
Or you can use radio wave emitters as a decoy instead of trying to fry missiles, but you can only launch them after detecting the missile as well. Your jammer must also be turned off if you do this
@hpgbproductions @Noname918181818181818181
So here's an addition to this... Downscale a Microwave CIWS to the size of plane such that it's effective within a certain range. Likely using magnetrons that are extremely high power but short pulses to fry onboard tracking electronics once the missile is in a certain range. The points Noname made for the F-22's escape still stands, but with this, you're literally impossible to hit BVR because the missile is probably depending on the energy it built to reach you and likely will get fried by the microwave emitters before hitting you.
When I meant downscale it by the way, I mean take a microwave emitters meant for two miles of coverage and then make it effective for only 500ft of coverage, which to avoid getting hit is more than enough rangem
@hpgbproductions agreed. So what I'm getting here is there is some feasibility, but there's challenges. It still might necessary to use some stealth then... Unless it's a 4.5 gen.
@GalaxiesDontSlleep the real strat is to turn off your jammer after you detect the anti radiation missile, but if you have a jammer, radio warning receivers might be blinded. AWACS aren't magic and probably can't detect ARMs at their long range. Maybe set up jamming drones or something to protect the AWACS
@GalaxiesDontSlleep a general direction which it could turn away from. Besides, youre forgetting about doctrine here. An F-22 will probably not give away its main advantage, its stealth, just to pursue one objective, a single fighter. You need to remember that doctrine exists for a reason, and thats to maximize your advantages and minimize weaknesses. Why get rid of your main advantage by getting close when you could just, idk, stay a safe distance away and fight from there. Besides, if the objective is to get rid of enemy aviation, your airfields are getting bombed, and your planes would probably be bombed too. Doctrine
@Noname918181818181818181 but then the F-22 doesn't commit to a second lock, it's lost its chance to finish a goal. If it's after me, it's not going to stop unless it has got me. It might defend, but it has to go offensive eventually. Having fired a missile, it gave a away a general direction, which is enough to start an engagement within visual range, provided your radar works.
@GalaxiesDontSlleep makes sense, though its likely that it wont even really matter in the end. lets take your F-22 example
say it sees you first, you dont see it. it launches a missile. You say youll hunt at this point, but could you really? You cant see the F 22, and once it has launched the missile it has probably already turned to the other direction and ran the fuck away. You aint chasing something you cant see. You could follow where the missile came from, but what if the F-22 turned to another direction that isnt where they launched the missile. You can see where the missile was launched, but not the aircraft that launched the missile, which will 100% try to leave the area once that missile is launched. Thats the doctrine
@Noname918181818181818181 F-22, yes, but the F-35 actually does outdo the stealth of the F-22... Because... You can't hit it. F-22 itself is still, if you find it, though rare, it is dead. For an air superiority fighter, it does feel like the logical next step instead of making a more stealthy design. Once again for a bomber on interceptor, it makes sense
Again, I'm not trying to replace stealth... Therese still use cases for it, but an air superiority fighter focusing on jamming and confusing over cloaking does make more sense since the lower price.
@GalaxiesDontSlleep I mean, it could work, thats why they have an EA-18G, but theres probably a reason why they have F-22s and F-35s instead of doing a dogfighter with radar confuser thingies. Weight of the jammer pods could be one, then Anti radiation missiles like HGBP said
Although, this could make an interesting alternate universe scenario for a story, so that would be very interesting
@Noname918181818181818181 yeah. it's like a step above blowing millions on a saturated field, i.e, stealth
@hpgbproductions yeah, but flares and decoys already exist to counter honing meseeles
so electronic warfare
@GalaxiesDontSlleep uhh no, radiation homing missiles go towards the largest emitter of radio waves (before lock on) then track it, so they do not get confused by radio waves
@hpgbproductions that's a pretty fair point as well.
But the honing missiles are still going to get confused by amplified waves anyway.
Kid named radiation-homing missiles:
Anyway, could have slight potential but you're on the back foot, since your radar might be blinded by your jammer
@overlord5453 precisely
So a super advanced EW system?
@HuskyDynamics01 those don't matter. We're not using jamming,We're using projecting. Someone else somewhere else did point out that missiles know what the source is, though.