Here's some I could find on my phone chii, I may find a few more on my computer if I'm lucky. (Don't get your hopes up for the Natter though!)
Did you figure out the AI gun thing btw? Sorry I haven't looked into it much yet, I've been away x(
.
.
Chii's builds
Airplanes
Doug AI https://www.simpleplanes.com/a/K8tZHr/AI-Fighter-Doug-Redesign-by-Tsuchiisan
@Ceilies
I assume you used an explosive cannon or one with high impactDamageScaler? System doesn't work with large explosion or too high an IDS due to the way the game works.
@UnidentifiedStapler
Yeah, the hitbox thing happens when you change the Z scale of the wheel part. Enabling the built-in suspension fixes it (as long as the suspension values aren't too low). Drawback is that... you have to enable the built-in suspension.
(My comment got cut off, it was probably too long. Here's the rest:)
But AI will stop firing the cannon under some conditions (I'm not sure what exactly are those conditions), and when it stops, you basically have to make it, the AI, repeat the process if you want it to fire a cannon again. And this is how my Missile & Rotator based bot trigger mechanism works. Every time AI stops firing its weapons (=not pressing down on the Virtual.. Insanity.. jk, FireWeapons button), missile re-activates, so AI can & will fire a missile again.
Feel free to throw me more questions about this thing if you don't understand something about it. I try my best to explain it, but it's kinda convoluted and it can be hard to tell how well I'm explaining it.
@Monarchii
Sorry for my late response chii, been kinda occupied.
Anyhow, no problem at all:)
.
So, the radar-tator and the activation missile+the orange cannon are separate things.
.
"Radar-tator" is a mechanism which rotates the Cockpit (set as Primary) 360 degrees until it finds a target (and reset when it does). This is for helping the AI find a target. It's needed for "enemy AI turret" type builds because aggressive AI has a frontal field of vision that's probably less than 180 degrees (angle is based on the current heading of the main cockpit block) and only "sees" other active planes inside this cone. Only exception I know is when the AI gets locked-on by other active plane's missile from any angle, in which case it can "see" the threat and react to it.
.
.
The orange cannon is a part of a mechanism which limits the maximum firing range (altitude & distance) of the flak gun. This is an optional thing, mainly for realism & (I suppose,) game mechanic.
Basically, AI must keep firing a weapon/ (=a cannon) if you want it to keep firing/using a cannon. Meaning, if you give it only a cannon(s) that disables itself under certain conditions, it stops firing under said conditions, and it won't fire the cannon again. But you do want to disable the cannon under some conditions, so what you can do is to give it a fake cannon to replace the "real" cannons when the real ones are disabled.
I think technically it's probably possible to give this function to the bot trigger missile, and remove the fake cannon, but I think that'll probably introduce some other nuisances.
As for the trigger (Activation) conditions for the fake and real cannons, you just need to write an Activation FT for the real cannons as a Custom Variable (condition which activates the real cannons), and give the same variable to the fake gun as its activation FT except with an inverse function (=!).
.
. How AI uses cannons
I should write a quick refresher on how AI uses cannons. Basically, AI never uses air-to-air weapons other than missiles (as weapons, using FireWeapons input) under normal conditions. (I don't think they ever use air-to-ground only weapons)
But if it fires a missile that's AtA (including multirole), and "runs out" of that missile, AI switches to the next AtA weapon, while still pressing-down on the virtual FireWeapons button. And if the next weapon is a cannon, it continues to press down on the virtual FireWeapons button, which causes the cannon to fire. This is how AI fires a cannon (in current version of the game).
B
You have every right to do things the way it suits you and at your own pace with this game & the site chii, I for one am just happy to see you around again:)
@KSB24
Since I've uploaded the flak cannon, I've learned that there's a much simpler, easier & cost efficient way of doing this (thanks to @PlanariaLab). All you have to do is, instead of detaching 1/3 of the total parts count, lose over 1/2 of the total (starting) wing area. Just one big wing on a detacher in other words. (you can scale down the wing part, of course) Just two parts!
@MrCOPTY
Not sure if this is the issue you are having, but there seems to be a bug where having "&" condition inside the activation FT of a parachute does something weird. When I used it (the & condition) trying to create a retardation/high-drag device for a bomb, game would alway glitch and became unplayable, spawning my aircraft some crazy distance below ground.
When I saw the teaser, I speculated that this was using fuel tank and fuel percentage for the trigger, as I could get an auto-ejecting pilot with that method (which had big fuel tanks (capacity wise) in each wing, so when one of them gets destroyed, fuel percentage gets really low, which activates the detacher)... but wow, I didn't think it would be this advanced!! Great job!
Love the design and functionality. The buikd quality/the finish is very nice, and it 'looks' and 'feels' like a medium bomber--which is one my favorite class of aircrafts!
@Astro12
Very true. I really needed something like this for a turret that uses autoaim (which is for AI) especially, since it can't even make a manual adjustment unlike a human player.
.
I was very lucky to come up with this method (using a secondary cockpit to get the data on how much the ship's roll angle--this is most likely not the first one to use it), since alternatives (like doing crazy calculation based on ship hull's heading, pitch/roll angle, turret rotation etc.) get pretty complex and way beyond my brain's computing power and math skill. lol
@WinsWings
Thanks, that would make sense.
I think I'll try to make each class of gun/cannon AA distinct in terms of their effectiveness, based also on era. Looking back, I've made the 85mm flak too capable in the tracking department (rotates too fast).
@SILVERPANZER
Thanks for tagging:)
Yeah I am very much interested in this. I have some speculations on how this might work (in a very simplified way), but I'd love to see it for myself when it's uploaded.
Really cool build! I especially like the sequenced breath/laser attack. Tried it against some ground targets, and when the laser hit them, they'd just fly like a speck of dust brown by wind! Haha. Glorious stuff.
.
I got this issue though, on mobile version where the FireFuns button constantly flickers (perhaps due to something with activationGroups FT?) and never stayed on screen, which made it unable to use the laser. It was easily fixable though, with an extra hidden minigun or wing gun with burstCount of 1 and really long timeBetweenBurst. Not sure if it happens to others as well, but I thought I should let you know nonetheless.
@WinsWings
Mmm! I'm wondering if it's (it probably is) better to use machine gun parts for those. They are a bit more tricky to use though, and seems to have some limitations. https://www.simpleplanes.com/a/j40xqF/ZSU-23-4-Shilka-AI-Ground-Target
Here's a working example of it, it's also one of my inspirations.
If you don't mind me asking, do you know when the medium caliber AA guns were most prominent and when they were phased out? Stuff like 57mm guns.
@DatMaluchGuy19
Yeah. I've seen some arguments and mean comments thrown among users myself. And you kinda have to make some assessment on a person's character based on their history, and sometimes reputation, but it's good to remember that your image of the person is based on an incomplete picture (it depends, right).
And if it's a petty drama, it's better to stay away and don't touch on it in order not to contribute to the mess. If it's really bad, I'd probably tell them to use block feature though.
@MACCOD
Sorry, it's an unfinished work in progress. (Same goes for F-105 too) You can find some nice A-6s on the site though. I'd recommend Dracul0Anderson's build here, if you don't mind putting weapons on it yourself: https://www.simpleplanes.com/a/xW441M/Grumman-A-6-Intruder
@DatMaluchGuy19
Hey buddy, I don't know the history of the person well so I can't confirm these claim one way or the other (negative or positive), but you shouldn't pass a judgement on a person based on what others are saying or telling you alone, let alone call them a scum. The person's reputation may or may not be granted, but we should leave the hard feelings for the people who have firsthand experience with them to hold.
@Hannyboy
Go for it!
You can use this as the basis if you like. (You can easily remove or rearrange the planes.)
I'll probably upload the structures in a separate upload as a starter kit.
@WinsWings
Mm... But on a second thought, I'd guess it was probably the lighter AAA that were more prevalent post ww2 (I'm not well read on this).. so yeah, you're probably right it's more appropriate for the ww2 settings. Gotta the make the smaller AA guns at some point, haha
@WinsWings
Thank you. (And for highlighting that one, too)
The 52-K flak works in a Vietnam war settings, also! If I'm correct it was among the AAA models used by the North Vietnamese military.
.
Edit
Checked the page I got the info from just in case (I started to doubt my memory), it's listed as 85mm air defense gun M1944... phew, lol https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/WeaponsoftheVietnamWar
Guys, if you haven't tried this yet, give it a try now! You probably won't regret it. AI flak - 85mm AA gun https://www.simpleplanes.com/a/9i7JiL/AI-flak-gun-52-K-85mm-v1
This is a flak cannon that works with the base. It's made for Aggressive AI, and it actually fires the explosive cannon(s) at you or other AI planes flying around. It won't attack the base or each other, so you can basically create an air defense wherever you want (you need to create custom spawns though). Give it a try!!
@WinsWings
Thank you very much, glad you enjoyed it!!
Have you tried this build as well? https://www.simpleplanes.com/a/9i7JiL/AI-flak-gun-52-K-85mm-v1
It's an actual flak cannon made for aggressive AI. Creates a bunch of explosions in the sky, and sometimes hits you. You can spawn multiple of them around the base, and they only attack you or other AI planes.
@GUGA4721
I see, thanks for letting me know.
See if it improves the performance when you delete a couple of vehicles and maybe a barrack or two. (The triangular ones) Add some letters to the name and save as a separate file.
You can grab the aircrafts by the vertical stabilizers and disconnect them from the detacher. (You can scale them down to 0.1x the size, and rescale them back up to make it easier, but you probably don't need to.)
.
Also low-physics for some extra boost in performance.
@winterro
That makes sense. Thanks for the explanation. (Still wondering why firing two missiles make it permanent, has anyone got a clue on it?)
.
I've made a modified version of the gun to incorporate the double missile technique, and it worked fine. Felt a little laggier than usual when I spawned multiple units though. I'm a little concerned about the effect of having a bunch of objects moving at light speed has, so perhaps the I time spent on the reset-rotator mechanism wasn't entirely a waste of time, haha
@winterro
Huh, what's the settings of those missiles in your first example? Their names, activationGroup, firing delay, etc.
Also, about the second example, 1)does the missile have to be fired by the AI's pressing FireWeapons button, or can you do it with AG as soon as they spawn, and 2)what does the process look like?
@Dracul0Anderson https://www.simpleplanes.com/a/j40xqF/ZSU-23-4-Shilka
It does, and it already exists: this ZSU by MysteryTimeTraveler. The trick used on it got its own quirks though.
The thing with guns is that aggro-edAI usually don't use it unless the target is in front of them. Detaching cockpit seems to make them fire guns indefinitely without them facing the target, and that's the technique used with the ZSU here. They seem to stop firing/never fire the guns under some conditions, though, like when the cockpit is on a moving rotator--which limits their target search angle to where they were facing upon spawning.
So I was thinking of experimenting with, like, a smaller caliber version of the cannon version. As you know cannon rounds don't spread, so it's gonna be kind of a pain in the back + parts intensive to make it not super accurate though.
Looks good and very fun to fly! (even on smart phone!)
Great build.
Here's some I could find on my phone chii, I may find a few more on my computer if I'm lucky. (Don't get your hopes up for the Natter though!)
Did you figure out the AI gun thing btw? Sorry I haven't looked into it much yet, I've been away x(
.
.
Chii's builds
Airplanes
Doug AI
https://www.simpleplanes.com/a/K8tZHr/AI-Fighter-Doug-Redesign-by-Tsuchiisan
Geoff AI
https://www.simpleplanes.com/a/WekXVr/AI-Fighter-Geoff-by-Tsuchiisan-lpfighter
Nachute AI
https://www.simpleplanes.com/a/I8g2uI/AI-Fighter-Nachteule-by-Tsuchiisan
E-3 Bandog AWACS
https://www.simpleplanes.com/a/28k28v/AI-ASAP-AWACS-E-3-Bandog-by-tsuchiisan-chiis-old-build
Hamuko - single seat fighter
https://www.simpleplanes.com/a/VIPN43/Hamuko-by-Tsuchiisan
Giant Seaplane Zephyr II
https://www.simpleplanes.com/a/GR78ON/Giant-Seaplane-The-Zephyr-II-TT3-by-Tsuchiisan-LPplane
Air ship
Grand Explorer
https://www.simpleplanes.com/a/9IKs07/Airship-Grand-Explorer-Holy-Lyre-TGT2-by-Tsuchiisan
Hover bike Sleipnir
https://www.simpleplanes.com/a/614Z0k/Dieslevr-Aeroflotmotorwerks-H-11L-Custom-Sleipnir-by-tsuchiisan
Senko pilot fig
https://www.simpleplanes.com/a/g9Yn4O/Figure-G_suit-Senko-by-tsuchiisan-anime
Ships
HMS Reaper, CVE
https://www.simpleplanes.com/a/0uNXFU/HMS-Reaper-escort-carrier-TT2-by-Tsuchiisan-LPS
I-15 sub carrier
https://www.simpleplanes.com/a/4tochL/SSV-I-15-Floatplane-Submarine-TT4-by-tsuchiisan-lps-AIS
@Ceilies
I assume you used an explosive cannon or one with high impactDamageScaler? System doesn't work with large explosion or too high an IDS due to the way the game works.
@UnidentifiedStapler
+1Yeah, the hitbox thing happens when you change the Z scale of the wheel part. Enabling the built-in suspension fixes it (as long as the suspension values aren't too low). Drawback is that... you have to enable the built-in suspension.
@ScoutTrooperGaming
No problem!
You need to disable AG8 & activate AG1, then lower the VTOL slider.
Feel free to ask questions if you have more:)
(My comment got cut off, it was probably too long. Here's the rest:)
But AI will stop firing the cannon under some conditions (I'm not sure what exactly are those conditions), and when it stops, you basically have to make it, the AI, repeat the process if you want it to fire a cannon again. And this is how my Missile & Rotator based bot trigger mechanism works. Every time AI stops firing its weapons (=not pressing down on the Virtual.. Insanity.. jk,
FireWeaponsbutton), missile re-activates, so AI can & will fire a missile again.Feel free to throw me more questions about this thing if you don't understand something about it. I try my best to explain it, but it's kinda convoluted and it can be hard to tell how well I'm explaining it.
@Monarchii
Sorry for my late response chii, been kinda occupied.
Anyhow, no problem at all:)
.
So, the radar-tator and the activation missile+the orange cannon are separate things.
.
"Radar-tator" is a mechanism which rotates the Cockpit (set as Primary) 360 degrees until it finds a target (and reset when it does). This is for helping the AI find a target. It's needed for "enemy AI turret" type builds because aggressive AI has a frontal field of vision that's probably less than 180 degrees (angle is based on the current heading of the main cockpit block) and only "sees" other active planes inside this cone. Only exception I know is when the AI gets locked-on by other active plane's missile from any angle, in which case it can "see" the threat and react to it.
.
.
The orange cannon is a part of a mechanism which limits the maximum firing range (altitude & distance) of the flak gun. This is an optional thing, mainly for realism & (I suppose,) game mechanic.
Basically, AI must keep firing a weapon/ (=a cannon) if you want it to keep firing/using a cannon. Meaning, if you give it only a cannon(s) that disables itself under certain conditions, it stops firing under said conditions, and it won't fire the cannon again. But you do want to disable the cannon under some conditions, so what you can do is to give it a fake cannon to replace the "real" cannons when the real ones are disabled.
I think technically it's probably possible to give this function to the bot trigger missile, and remove the fake cannon, but I think that'll probably introduce some other nuisances.
As for the trigger (Activation) conditions for the fake and real cannons, you just need to write an Activation FT for the real cannons as a Custom Variable (condition which activates the real cannons), and give the same variable to the fake gun as its activation FT except with an inverse function (=
!)..
.
How AI uses cannons
I should write a quick refresher on how AI uses cannons. Basically, AI never uses air-to-air weapons other than missiles (as weapons, using
FireWeaponsinput) under normal conditions. (I don't think they ever use air-to-ground only weapons)But if it fires a missile that's AtA (including multirole), and "runs out" of that missile, AI switches to the next AtA weapon, while still pressing-down on the virtual
FireWeaponsbutton. And if the next weapon is a cannon, it continues to press down on the virtualFireWeaponsbutton, which causes the cannon to fire. This is how AI fires a cannon (in current version of the game).B
@Monarchii
+1Oh man, you made me brush heheh
I'll be looking forward to seeing whatever you're cooking up... x)
You have every right to do things the way it suits you and at your own pace with this game & the site chii, I for one am just happy to see you around again:)
+1@DatMaluchGuy19
+1Whenever I got time & drive
This is just sugo-incredible.
+1@KSB24
+1Since I've uploaded the flak cannon, I've learned that there's a much simpler, easier & cost efficient way of doing this (thanks to @PlanariaLab). All you have to do is, instead of detaching 1/3 of the total parts count, lose over 1/2 of the total (starting) wing area. Just one big wing on a detacher in other words. (you can scale down the wing part, of course) Just two parts!
@DatMaluchGuy19
+1Sure, you and me, or KSB and me?
I should write a quick tutorial on how to remove marker at some point, it's pretty simple & useful.
Beautiful. Love the design.
So cool!!
Nice house!
+1Another great FT weapon!
+1Pleasant to fly even on smartphone, with nice turn rates and such (there are so many planes out there I can't fly on mobile). Nice build!
+1@MrCOPTY
Not sure if this is the issue you are having, but there seems to be a bug where having "&" condition inside the activation FT of a parachute does something weird. When I used it (the & condition) trying to create a retardation/high-drag device for a bomb, game would alway glitch and became unplayable, spawning my aircraft some crazy distance below ground.
Love this! Camera aim and nice flight characteristics actually allow me to let it fly in circles and hit things on the ground. Well done.
+1Love the design!
When I saw the teaser, I speculated that this was using fuel tank and fuel percentage for the trigger, as I could get an auto-ejecting pilot with that method (which had big fuel tanks (capacity wise) in each wing, so when one of them gets destroyed, fuel percentage gets really low, which activates the detacher)... but wow, I didn't think it would be this advanced!! Great job!
+2@DatMaluchGuy19
+1Thx lol
Had to have something there to simulate the rolling/pitching motion, so I figured it may as well be a ship
Love the design and functionality. The buikd quality/the finish is very nice, and it 'looks' and 'feels' like a medium bomber--which is one my favorite class of aircrafts!
Looks great! Tag please, whenever it's out.
@Astro12
+1Very true. I really needed something like this for a turret that uses autoaim (which is for AI) especially, since it can't even make a manual adjustment unlike a human player.
.
I was very lucky to come up with this method (using a secondary cockpit to get the data on how much the ship's roll angle--this is most likely not the first one to use it), since alternatives (like doing crazy calculation based on ship hull's heading, pitch/roll angle, turret rotation etc.) get pretty complex and way beyond my brain's computing power and math skill. lol
Love this! It's kinda ugly as an aircraft (sorry, lol), but the build quality is very high.
+1@WinsWings
+1Thanks, that would make sense.
I think I'll try to make each class of gun/cannon AA distinct in terms of their effectiveness, based also on era. Looking back, I've made the 85mm flak too capable in the tracking department (rotates too fast).
T!
@SILVERPANZER
Thanks for tagging:)
Yeah I am very much interested in this. I have some speculations on how this might work (in a very simplified way), but I'd love to see it for myself when it's uploaded.
Really cool build! I especially like the sequenced breath/laser attack. Tried it against some ground targets, and when the laser hit them, they'd just fly like a speck of dust brown by wind! Haha. Glorious stuff.
+1.
I got this issue though, on mobile version where the FireFuns button constantly flickers (perhaps due to something with activationGroups FT?) and never stayed on screen, which made it unable to use the laser. It was easily fixable though, with an extra hidden minigun or wing gun with burstCount of 1 and really long timeBetweenBurst. Not sure if it happens to others as well, but I thought I should let you know nonetheless.
@MACCOD
Thanks, I hope they'll come out nice!
Thanks for the tag, looking forward to seeing more!
+1@WinsWings
Mmm! I'm wondering if it's (it probably is) better to use machine gun parts for those. They are a bit more tricky to use though, and seems to have some limitations.
https://www.simpleplanes.com/a/j40xqF/ZSU-23-4-Shilka-AI-Ground-Target
Here's a working example of it, it's also one of my inspirations.
If you don't mind me asking, do you know when the medium caliber AA guns were most prominent and when they were phased out? Stuff like 57mm guns.
@DatMaluchGuy19
+2Yeah. I've seen some arguments and mean comments thrown among users myself. And you kinda have to make some assessment on a person's character based on their history, and sometimes reputation, but it's good to remember that your image of the person is based on an incomplete picture (it depends, right).
And if it's a petty drama, it's better to stay away and don't touch on it in order not to contribute to the mess. If it's really bad, I'd probably tell them to use block feature though.
@MACCOD
Sorry, it's an unfinished work in progress. (Same goes for F-105 too) You can find some nice A-6s on the site though. I'd recommend Dracul0Anderson's build here, if you don't mind putting weapons on it yourself: https://www.simpleplanes.com/a/xW441M/Grumman-A-6-Intruder
Love how you made this, looks very well polished. Great build!
+1@DatMaluchGuy19
+2Hey buddy, I don't know the history of the person well so I can't confirm these claim one way or the other (negative or positive), but you shouldn't pass a judgement on a person based on what others are saying or telling you alone, let alone call them a scum. The person's reputation may or may not be granted, but we should leave the hard feelings for the people who have firsthand experience with them to hold.
@Hannyboy
+1Go for it!
You can use this as the basis if you like. (You can easily remove or rearrange the planes.)
I'll probably upload the structures in a separate upload as a starter kit.
@WinsWings
+1Mm... But on a second thought, I'd guess it was probably the lighter AAA that were more prevalent post ww2 (I'm not well read on this).. so yeah, you're probably right it's more appropriate for the ww2 settings. Gotta the make the smaller AA guns at some point, haha
@WinsWings
+1Thank you. (And for highlighting that one, too)
The 52-K flak works in a Vietnam war settings, also! If I'm correct it was among the AAA models used by the North Vietnamese military.
.
Edit
Checked the page I got the info from just in case (I started to doubt my memory), it's listed as 85mm air defense gun M1944... phew, lol
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/WeaponsoftheVietnamWar
@GUGA4721
+1You're welcome:)
Guys, if you haven't tried this yet, give it a try now! You probably won't regret it.
AI flak - 85mm AA gun
https://www.simpleplanes.com/a/9i7JiL/AI-flak-gun-52-K-85mm-v1
This is a flak cannon that works with the base. It's made for Aggressive AI, and it actually fires the explosive cannon(s) at you or other AI planes flying around. It won't attack the base or each other, so you can basically create an air defense wherever you want (you need to create custom spawns though). Give it a try!!
@WinsWings
+1Thank you very much, glad you enjoyed it!!
Have you tried this build as well?
https://www.simpleplanes.com/a/9i7JiL/AI-flak-gun-52-K-85mm-v1
It's an actual flak cannon made for aggressive AI. Creates a bunch of explosions in the sky, and sometimes hits you. You can spawn multiple of them around the base, and they only attack you or other AI planes.
@GUGA4721
+1I see, thanks for letting me know.
See if it improves the performance when you delete a couple of vehicles and maybe a barrack or two. (The triangular ones) Add some letters to the name and save as a separate file.
You can grab the aircrafts by the vertical stabilizers and disconnect them from the detacher. (You can scale them down to 0.1x the size, and rescale them back up to make it easier, but you probably don't need to.)
.
Also low-physics for some extra boost in performance.
@winterro
That makes sense. Thanks for the explanation. (Still wondering why firing two missiles make it permanent, has anyone got a clue on it?)
.
I've made a modified version of the gun to incorporate the double missile technique, and it worked fine. Felt a little laggier than usual when I spawned multiple units though. I'm a little concerned about the effect of having a bunch of objects moving at light speed has, so perhaps the I time spent on the reset-rotator mechanism wasn't entirely a waste of time, haha
@winterro
I see, thanks. Is it also necessary to launch the missiles with detachers, or does this work without them?
@winterro
Huh, what's the settings of those missiles in your first example? Their names, activationGroup, firing delay, etc.
Also, about the second example, 1)does the missile have to be fired by the AI's pressing FireWeapons button, or can you do it with AG as soon as they spawn, and 2)what does the process look like?
This is super maneuverable and fun to fly! Nice build!
@Dracul0Anderson
https://www.simpleplanes.com/a/j40xqF/ZSU-23-4-Shilka
It does, and it already exists: this ZSU by MysteryTimeTraveler. The trick used on it got its own quirks though.
The thing with guns is that aggro-edAI usually don't use it unless the target is in front of them. Detaching cockpit seems to make them fire guns indefinitely without them facing the target, and that's the technique used with the ZSU here. They seem to stop firing/never fire the guns under some conditions, though, like when the cockpit is on a moving rotator--which limits their target search angle to where they were facing upon spawning.
So I was thinking of experimenting with, like, a smaller caliber version of the cannon version. As you know cannon rounds don't spread, so it's gonna be kind of a pain in the back + parts intensive to make it not super accurate though.